I was briefly a United Methodist in high school - sort of a half-way house out of evangelicalism into more liberal and liturgical Christianity - and read a bit of Methodist history. John Wesley was married very unhappily, his wife abusive, regularly heckling him as he preached and sometimes dragging him around the room by the ear when she was angry at him at home. Charles Wesley never married - and in fact, stopped speaking to his brother for a few years after the marriage. Reading this account of their mother, I understand these anecdotes far better.
Thank you Talia. I have watched this play out in my cousins lives for decades. And here in a large liberal left coast city suburb, have found it impossible to understand how so few people see it going on (these are not people living on the fringes, hiding from society, they are in line with you at Trader Joes). Their brand of religion has a direct influence on my lack of religion, and really, my lack of any spiritual belief at all. I simply couldn't find a way to believe after experiencing this as a product of belief. Four of my five cousins did not attend their parent's 50th anniversary, because Bill Gothard did. I was shocked earlier this year when one cousin reconnected with her parents... and then I realized, her youngest just had a birthday, her own kids are now adults.
An interesting research rabbit path would be Daniel Paul Schreber and his father. His father was the Doctor Spock of his era, he wrote the parenting books that would have raised Adolf Hitler and a few other generations of Nazis. The parenting advice is openly abusive. Of his sons, one killed himself very young and the other became a German supreme court justice until suffering from a massive mental breakdown:
Alice Miller's work For Your Own Good explores how parenting books of that era influenced not only the upbringing of Hitler and the Nazis, but also of the ordinary German citizens who did not resist and went along with their regime. As I read it (many years ago), I was horrified when I realized the similarity to James Dobson and the like.
The depth of the rationalized extreme child abuse is breathtaking and leaves lasting scars. This kind of treatment should be outlawed. Its assault. Hard to imagine anyone beating a child at these tender ages. Those who do this are sick,sadistic toxic and should be brought to justice. It sounds like its a public health crisis to me. A national problem. Parents don't own their children. It makes me so sad and angry. Thank you Talia for taking this journey and sharing it.
An important series of essays. It was difficult reading, as it should be, and I hope it reaches many people. It's hard to express how much our society hates children from physical and mental abuse to countless horrific policies like no free school meals. A miracle many of them even make it to adulthood, and devastating how many do not.
Thank you so much for this series, Talia, from a strong-willed child survivor of the wooden spoon. I do think there's a special perspective that comes from an outsider who is willing to really listen to the experiences of the in-group; you're able to see the horror in a different way than we are, but also able to center our voices. I was linked to this series by a friend and I'm excited to subscribe to your newsletter.
The penultimate paragraph in this piece is some of the most touching writing I've read in a very long time. I belong to a Methodist church, and while I'm aware of Susanna Wesley, she's definitely not being held up as some kind of paragon of maternal virtue. But our congregation is a little heretical, very active in the LGBTQ+ community, I consider it more of a community service organization. My middle schooler was there last night packing lunches for the needy, and as mouthy and disruptive as he regularly is (see: middle schoolers), he's always accepted as-is. No one would ever suggest I beat it out of him.
"Her reaction was gratitude for her parents’ 'vigilance'; these practices, she wrote, do not seem oppressive to her looking back"
I would posit that the reason for this rationalization, and the reason we see such things passed down, is due to the internalized belief (repeated and reinforced widely throughout a lifetime) that this abuse most definitely averted something far worse. My mother used to cry until she was sick after spanking me, but she did not believe she could avoid it, even as much as it hurt us both, because everyone she'd ever known had told her that 'undisciplined' children grow up to be terrible people. So she felt this was her duty to me, to prevent me from becoming a psychopathic monster. She simply didn't know any different. And she, herself had been broken to the point that she couldn't even begin to question the authorities who told her it was mandatory.
But for me, it's kind of like the old adage "no child goes off to college not knowing how to tie their shoes." Kids have an innate sense of justice. All we really need to do is nurture it, not beat it out of them. I have come to the firm conclusion that any possible positive lesson learned through spanking could be learned without it, and most likely would be anyway because that's what happens as we mature. Spanking gets the credit but it's correlation, not causation.
So yeah, they say these things must be done because your kids will be adults one day. Sure. But if I break a law as an adult, there is no policeman coming to my house with a court order to beat my ass with his belt. No judge is going to send me out to pick a switch. Of course not! These kinds of punishments are strictly reserved for children. But there is no relationship whatsoever between these childhood beatings and our adulthood experiences, no useful parallels we can draw upon, no beneficial lessons that can be carried forward into adult life. There is, however, a whole lot of dysfunctional coping you'll internalize, which will seriously cripple your ability to maintain healthy relationships and manage conflict as an adult - the threat of a beating will feel present long after it stops being a possibility.
I'm really hoping that the confluence of 1) the ever growing mass of parents now deliberately raising our kids without spanking and 2) the fact that everyone lives online now, will allow parents like my mom to see with their own eyes just how unnecessary The Rod is. To borrow from my upbringing: Let our children be a witness to the world. And maybe then we can start to decouple discipline from violence as a society.
Thanks for this series. Deep and wide.
I've realized a few of the ways the routine brutalization of children could play out thru this "society" of ours, and it chills and disheartens me.
Oh to be that person whose heart is open enough to take in all the broken ones...
I was briefly a United Methodist in high school - sort of a half-way house out of evangelicalism into more liberal and liturgical Christianity - and read a bit of Methodist history. John Wesley was married very unhappily, his wife abusive, regularly heckling him as he preached and sometimes dragging him around the room by the ear when she was angry at him at home. Charles Wesley never married - and in fact, stopped speaking to his brother for a few years after the marriage. Reading this account of their mother, I understand these anecdotes far better.
Thank you Talia. I have watched this play out in my cousins lives for decades. And here in a large liberal left coast city suburb, have found it impossible to understand how so few people see it going on (these are not people living on the fringes, hiding from society, they are in line with you at Trader Joes). Their brand of religion has a direct influence on my lack of religion, and really, my lack of any spiritual belief at all. I simply couldn't find a way to believe after experiencing this as a product of belief. Four of my five cousins did not attend their parent's 50th anniversary, because Bill Gothard did. I was shocked earlier this year when one cousin reconnected with her parents... and then I realized, her youngest just had a birthday, her own kids are now adults.
An interesting research rabbit path would be Daniel Paul Schreber and his father. His father was the Doctor Spock of his era, he wrote the parenting books that would have raised Adolf Hitler and a few other generations of Nazis. The parenting advice is openly abusive. Of his sons, one killed himself very young and the other became a German supreme court justice until suffering from a massive mental breakdown:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Paul_Schreber
History doesn't repeat itself but it certainly rhymes.
Alice Miller's work For Your Own Good explores how parenting books of that era influenced not only the upbringing of Hitler and the Nazis, but also of the ordinary German citizens who did not resist and went along with their regime. As I read it (many years ago), I was horrified when I realized the similarity to James Dobson and the like.
If you've not seen it, check out this essay by Alice Miller, "The Political Consequences of Child Abuse."
https://psychohistory.com/articles/the-political-consequences-of-child-abuse/
Thanks - I'll check it out!
The depth of the rationalized extreme child abuse is breathtaking and leaves lasting scars. This kind of treatment should be outlawed. Its assault. Hard to imagine anyone beating a child at these tender ages. Those who do this are sick,sadistic toxic and should be brought to justice. It sounds like its a public health crisis to me. A national problem. Parents don't own their children. It makes me so sad and angry. Thank you Talia for taking this journey and sharing it.
An important series of essays. It was difficult reading, as it should be, and I hope it reaches many people. It's hard to express how much our society hates children from physical and mental abuse to countless horrific policies like no free school meals. A miracle many of them even make it to adulthood, and devastating how many do not.
Wow. Thank you for this series. Much here to ponder as I go through my own “deconstruction”
Thank you so much for this series, Talia, from a strong-willed child survivor of the wooden spoon. I do think there's a special perspective that comes from an outsider who is willing to really listen to the experiences of the in-group; you're able to see the horror in a different way than we are, but also able to center our voices. I was linked to this series by a friend and I'm excited to subscribe to your newsletter.
this wrecked me. and it helped me see that i am not alone or somehow uniquely fucked up. thank you.
The penultimate paragraph in this piece is some of the most touching writing I've read in a very long time. I belong to a Methodist church, and while I'm aware of Susanna Wesley, she's definitely not being held up as some kind of paragon of maternal virtue. But our congregation is a little heretical, very active in the LGBTQ+ community, I consider it more of a community service organization. My middle schooler was there last night packing lunches for the needy, and as mouthy and disruptive as he regularly is (see: middle schoolers), he's always accepted as-is. No one would ever suggest I beat it out of him.
"Her reaction was gratitude for her parents’ 'vigilance'; these practices, she wrote, do not seem oppressive to her looking back"
I would posit that the reason for this rationalization, and the reason we see such things passed down, is due to the internalized belief (repeated and reinforced widely throughout a lifetime) that this abuse most definitely averted something far worse. My mother used to cry until she was sick after spanking me, but she did not believe she could avoid it, even as much as it hurt us both, because everyone she'd ever known had told her that 'undisciplined' children grow up to be terrible people. So she felt this was her duty to me, to prevent me from becoming a psychopathic monster. She simply didn't know any different. And she, herself had been broken to the point that she couldn't even begin to question the authorities who told her it was mandatory.
But for me, it's kind of like the old adage "no child goes off to college not knowing how to tie their shoes." Kids have an innate sense of justice. All we really need to do is nurture it, not beat it out of them. I have come to the firm conclusion that any possible positive lesson learned through spanking could be learned without it, and most likely would be anyway because that's what happens as we mature. Spanking gets the credit but it's correlation, not causation.
So yeah, they say these things must be done because your kids will be adults one day. Sure. But if I break a law as an adult, there is no policeman coming to my house with a court order to beat my ass with his belt. No judge is going to send me out to pick a switch. Of course not! These kinds of punishments are strictly reserved for children. But there is no relationship whatsoever between these childhood beatings and our adulthood experiences, no useful parallels we can draw upon, no beneficial lessons that can be carried forward into adult life. There is, however, a whole lot of dysfunctional coping you'll internalize, which will seriously cripple your ability to maintain healthy relationships and manage conflict as an adult - the threat of a beating will feel present long after it stops being a possibility.
I'm really hoping that the confluence of 1) the ever growing mass of parents now deliberately raising our kids without spanking and 2) the fact that everyone lives online now, will allow parents like my mom to see with their own eyes just how unnecessary The Rod is. To borrow from my upbringing: Let our children be a witness to the world. And maybe then we can start to decouple discipline from violence as a society.